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know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em - Princess
maigrey
maigrey
know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em
For those of you who have rarely played live, here's a tip for you: never toss your winning cards into the muck until you have been awarded the pot.  Let this be a reminder to those who do play regularly live, as well.  You should never give your cards to the dealer until those pretty pretty chips are coming your way.  Why? Because you may not be awarded the pot.

Huh?

It's true.  Let me tell you about this true example that happened when I was playing on Friday night:

It's the baby game, and I've amassed a stack of ~$1500 in (play) chips.  With such a large stack comparative to the table, I turn from "only monsters" princess into G-Rob "how much do you really like your hand, short stack?" princess.  I'm in the cut-off (ish), and see J9 of clubs, and since it's folded to me, I bump it up to $15 to play.  The guy to my left calls, because he calls everything, the button folds, the SB folds, and the BB calls.  $47 in the pot.

Flop comes down Ad Jx 6d.  BB checks, I decide to check, the guy behind me checks, and the check is good. $47 in the pot.

Turn is a 8c.  BB checks, I bet $30,  guy to my left drops, BB agonizes yet calls.  $107 in the pot, heads up.  I put the BB on a flush draw at this point.

River is another 6.  BB goes into the tank and starts thinking.  After about 10 seconds, I say "that's not a diamond, sweetie", at which point he makes a hand motion and mumbles something.  I take this as a check, as does the dealer, and I turn my hand face up, as there's NO WAY I'm going to bother betting that with an ace and a pair on board.

The BB looks at my hand and then pitches his cards to the dealer at which point she pushes the pot towards me.

Of course, at this point, all hell breaks loose, and the BB starts screaming that he actually said "ALL-IN" not check!  I told him I didn't hear that and the dealer concurred, and he mucked his hand.  Instead of getting into a shouting match, I told the dealer to call the floor and let them make the ruling.

We explained the story to the floor, and the BB INSISTED that my hand was dead because I tabled (showed) it.  This is true if there are more than two players in the hand, however if you are heads up, you can expose your cards all you like, so my hand was still live.  The guy was not happy when the floor explained that to him, too.

The floor agreed with me, and awarded me the pot, to his screams of "but I folded trip SIXES".  The floor said that the only hand he saw at the table was mine, and he couldn't prove he had trip sixes, and thus, I was awarded the pot.

In fact, said the floor, I was being extremely nice because if I'd wanted to - as soon as I realized that he said "all in" and then mucked his hand, I could have said "call" and had the rest of the chips in front of him.

Somehow the BB wasn't mollified by that.  In fact, he then began to say that he was going to call all my $30 raises and get his money back.

Sho'nuf, 3 or 4 hands later I see Serena and Venus and raise to $30, and he (and the guy on my left who calls everything) calls. The flop comes down 9 7 2 all spades, and he checks to me and I bet $75; I don't LIKE the flush on board, but since I've got the queen of spades, I'm going to bet this pretty hard.

The guy who calls every preflop raise folds, and sho'nuf, the BB pushes all his chips in.  Since it's another $20 to me, this is an easy call. 

... imagine my surprise when he turns up a monster: 8s 3h.  SHIP IT TO ME.

So, kids, here are your lessons learned:
1. You can expose your hand to your opponent when you're heads up
2. DON'T give your (winning) cards to the dealer until you have been awarded the pot
3. 8s 3h is rarely worth $30 preflop, and not so much after a flop when you're drawing to a 9 high 4 flush.

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Comments
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 9th, 2005 08:45 pm (UTC) (Link)

Da' Sistas

Serena and Venus

Two black queens because you are down with the sistas'
maigrey From: maigrey Date: November 10th, 2005 06:17 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Da' Sistas

Bingo, mr. anonymous :)
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 10th, 2005 08:03 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Da' Sistas

Yeah, I like that a lot more than the Hiltons.

www.joaquinochoa.blogspot.com
mrparx From: mrparx Date: November 9th, 2005 10:17 pm (UTC) (Link)

Thanks For The Tip, Skip!

I found this extremely helpful, as I have only been to 2 card rooms so far. (I already knew that about the 8-3o though)Thanks!

Best,
Mr. P.
maigrey From: maigrey Date: November 10th, 2005 06:17 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Thanks For The Tip, Skip!

you're more than welcome :)
From: drizztdj Date: November 10th, 2005 06:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
In a deck with a high ten count left playing 83o is a +EV play.

I think I need to consult with you before I try NLHE live. Never done it before.

maigrey From: maigrey Date: November 10th, 2005 06:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
In a deck with a high ten count left playing 83o is a +EV play.

Whaaaaa? in english plzzzz.


Also, feel free to consult me in vegas for NLHE tips. :)
From: drizztdj Date: November 10th, 2005 11:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
Play more blackjack Ms Princess.
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 10th, 2005 09:05 pm (UTC) (Link)
Drizz is in blackjack land.

Way to school the fish.

StB
From: (Anonymous) Date: November 13th, 2005 03:26 am (UTC) (Link)

but why do it?

sure, you can expose your hand if you feel like it, but don't good players want to avoid a confrontation with the opponent / floor and just keep their cards to themselves until someone says DEFINITIVELY that they're pushing / folding / checking?

I hear a lot of people tell stories like this, and they're either just barely over the line, or not-as-out-of-bounds as their opponent, but the fact remains that you don't want it to be YOUR fault when there's a situation like this.
maigrey From: maigrey Date: November 13th, 2005 05:53 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: but why do it?

Actually, Mr. Anonymous, in this case I wasn't out of line at all - the action [from my view] went:

1.) Opponent thinks, then checks. (he made a hand movement that looked like check and only two people at the table could even hear that he said all in)
2.) The dealer looks at me for my action, and there's no way I'm going to bet that scary board, and I've been the agressor in the entire hand, so I think I'm good, but anyone that can call a bet is going to win the pot. Thus, I just table my hand and say, "jacks"
3.) My opponent, upon seeing my hand, tosses his cards into the muck
4.) Seven players, plus the dealer, assume that I win the hand, and the pot is pushed towards me.
5.) The player who mucked his cards starts screaming.

It's very very common for the aggresor to table their hand on the river when they're checking-esp when they're assuming they're good and don't need to see the crap their oppponent was attempting to suck out on them with. What I did was commonplace at a live table, except that the better hand didn't table their hand and say "I beat you".

I wasn't trying to angle shoot when I tabled my hand; I honestly thought I had the best of it. I am however, not going to forfeit a pot because my opponent was stupid. The cards were in the muck, no one EVER saw them, and he could have as easily made a hand up and said "I HAD QUADS BEEETCHES!" but who could prove it?

It's actually part of the game of poker - if you sleep, you lose. I have, myself lost a $300 pot because I didn't table my hand after being all in (which you don't have to do in ring game big bet poker), and missed that I had a full house to someone's flopped flush. That was my stupid tax, and I now always table my hand when someone calls my all-in, because cards speak, and that has saved me at least twice that comes to mind immediately when I was ready to pay out a loss but someone said, since my cards were face up on the table, "no no, you win"

Don't get me started on railbirds saying "no no you win," that's a totally different subject.

So anyway, this wasn't MY fault in this situation. But if you're asking why people angle shoot, that is sadly, a part of the poker game too. Everyone who plays angle shoots - it's just a matter of degree. There are some folks who do anything possible to get an angle, and then there are some people who call a rule like 'string bet' because they don't want to pay the whole large bet to chase their draw, but don't call a string bet when they've got a made hand and want to make their hand. Or you'll get someone who tries to shave a dollar off their time pot because the fill took too long.

If you show me someone who doesn't shoot any angles, I'll show you someone who doesn't play poker. I'm more of a 'string bet' angle shooter myself, but I know some folks who will do anything to get an advantage, and I must admit, some of the stuff they do is (in my book) out of line.
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